Khon Kaen Forum

IMMIGRATION => Visas, et al => Topic started by: marianjessop on May 12, 2016, 11:13:46 AM

Title: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: marianjessop on May 12, 2016, 11:13:46 AM
Hi everyone! I'm new here! From the Philippines, and Married to a Thai. Just ran all over and finally got my "Yellow" Residence Book. It's Blue for Thais. Does that make me a permanent residence here in Thailand? I can't get a clear answer even from my husband nor can he get one from the people at the Municipal Office. Basically that just means I'm a registered to an address, but what does that mean? I've read up on forums that in order to get permanent residence you need the red book then go to the police station, then have a certificate of residence, etc etc etc. So I'm not really convinced, nor am I relieved to get this Yellow Residence Book. Would greatly appreciate it if anyone could clear this up. Even the internet has mixed results. Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on May 12, 2016, 12:34:35 PM
Hiya MJ,

Welcome!  I don't know if coming from an ASEAN country makes any difference in your case.  However, at least for falang, there are NOT many permanent residents in Thailand. There seems to be a bit of  controversy about exactly how one gets it and how difficult or easy it is to obtain.  I think you have to have been making 80K per month for three years to qualify.  However, that should not be a problem for a rich KKU teacher!  Hehehehe . . . 

Other people may have better info that I do, but my research  (admittedly minimal) gives me the impression that  there are not really many benefits to being a permanent resident, even if you can get it.  It is not like the U.S. were permanent residents are very nearly citizens and  can do everything but vote in federal elections.

Anywho, your yellow book only proves that you live at the address in the book, it has NOTHING at all to do with your immigration status. With very few exceptions (if any) your status here will always be conditional, subject to the whims and pleasures of Immigration, reviewed and approved annually, as you no doubt have been doing all along. And that is the case regardless of how many Thai husbands and kids you might have.  It is unfortunate that immigration is so limited and restricted.  The only difference is that in the "old days" the same laws were in place, but rarely enforced, and the wheels could easily be greased with some bahtski. 

Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: TerryLH on May 12, 2016, 01:54:01 PM
OP, as Rex said, the Yellow Book just shows where you live.  It does not imply Permanent Residence or anything other than that's where you live.  If you change your address, you'll need a new yellow Book.

As a person married to a Thai, you can skip PR and apply directly for citizenship.
It's much cheaper and gives you a lot more than PR does.
You should read up on the qualifications and time line to apply, than set out to meet the requirements.

In the meantime, keep up with your immigration requirements / status.

Terry
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on May 12, 2016, 02:38:50 PM
MJ, you may want to read this web page on Permanent Residency.  Give you a lot of information.

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php (http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php)
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: TerryLH on May 12, 2016, 04:14:17 PM
And the fee for PR is about 100K for those married to a Thai.

As I said, much cheaper to skip PR and apply directly for Citizenship.
No re-registering every year.
No WP required.
No re-entry permits if you want to travel out of country.

For someone married to a Thai it seems like a no brainer to me.

There are some requirements, though.  The one thing I'm not sure about is whether the requirements are easier for a female like they are for extensions of stay from immigration.

From what I've read, you don't need an attorney or agent to apply for you.  It's supposed to be easy enough to do yourself. 

Good luck.
Terry
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on May 12, 2016, 09:18:28 PM
Don't know where you are coming from Terry.  The application fee is only 7.600 baht.  you have to be one of 100 from your country to make the cut, you have to go through an interview but everything seems pretty easy and straightforward.   Read this website.

http://usa.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/thailand-permanent-visa-us.php (http://usa.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/thailand-permanent-visa-us.php)
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: TerryLH on May 13, 2016, 12:56:36 AM
7600 to apply.  The rest you pay upon approval, which could be several years in the future, if at all. 
About 100k total for those married to a Thai.  About 200k for those not married to a Thai.

The website you read is a commercial site.  They are in the business of making money.  Maybe they didn't give all the fee info because it might scare off potential business?  I really don't know.

Here is more info.  More details about the total fee.

4. Fees
4.1 A fee for each application is 7,600 baht (Seven thousand six hundred baht only) whether permission is granted or not. Application fee is not refundable.
4.2 If the application is approved by the Immigration Commission, Prime Minister and Minister of Interior, the fee for the residence permit is 191,400 baht One hundred ninety-one thousand four hundred baht only). However, the residence permit fee for spouses and children (under 20 years of age) of aliens who already had the residence permit or Thai citizens is 95,700 baht (Ninety-five thousand and seven hundred baht only).

Terry
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on May 13, 2016, 06:43:23 AM
Excellent detail, Terry.  Should never doubt you.  I guess that is why a huge majority of us retirees living in Thailand do not apply for residency.  That is, unless you are very rich and don't want to be bothered by the yearly extension application costs and the re-entry permit charges.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: martin on May 13, 2016, 09:02:44 AM
Just out of curiosity, I looked into PR/Citizenship some years back and the biggest, and insurmountable, barrier to both (for me as a non-worker) was the need to have paid income tax for (I think) 3 years immediately preceding the application. No way around that so I looked no further.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on May 13, 2016, 05:21:56 PM
See what I meant in my original post?  Every time this comes up, people claim that it is simple and straight-forward.  Then, very soon, other posts suggest just the opposite and muddy the waters.

More important, me thinks, than how do you get it is if you get it, what does to do for you?

Can you avoid annual Imm interviews?
Is your residency status protected from being arbitrarily rescinded by Imm.
Can you work without a work permit?
Is your work permit "portable?" Can you take it from one job to another?
Are you free to perform work in industries formerly reserved only  for Thais?
Can you own a business outright?
Can you own land and houses outright?
Can you own a firearm (not that I recommend it)?

My research is old, but I tend to recall that the answer to all or most of these is an unambiguous "No!" 

No?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on May 14, 2016, 07:13:55 AM
I kept reading about Permanent Residency.  Like Rex said, there are still issues.  The only positive thing that I saw was NO 90 DAY REPORT.

You still have to renew your "red book' with the police every year - 1,000 baht.
You still have to get a re-entry permit every time you leave the country - 1,000 for single or 3,800 baht for multiple and probably expires after a year.

Like I said, the only thing different was no 90 day report.  All the rest seems to be the same as a Retirement extension or a Marriage visa.  You still have to go to IMM or police every year.

So where is the real benefit for retirees or a person married to a Thai unless one plans on becoming a Thai citizen?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on May 14, 2016, 08:21:51 AM
The 90 day report is a minor inconvenience, nothing more.  As they allow for an "agent" to file on your behalf, it is even less of a hassle.  I have not been to Imm to file my own 90 Day  in years.  Now that they (reportedly) no longer require photocopies of your PP, it is even easier.    It looks like online filing is imminent.

They would have to sweeten the pot a whole lot more to get my attention. It sounds like a political "face saving" thing.  They look good by offering a modern permanent residency--as many countries do--without giving up anything and without having to change much of anyting.  Very clever!
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: TerryLH on May 14, 2016, 09:36:26 AM
Quote from: Good 'ol Frank
So where is the real benefit for retirees or a person married to a Thai unless one plans on becoming a Thai citizen?

A couple of years ago a big change was made.  Now, if you are married to a Thai, you can apply directly for citizenship, and skip PR.

What remains the same for either, though, is the working with WP part.  So that eliminates quite a few people who otherwise might be interested in applying.



"It looks like online filing is imminent."

Online filing is already available.  While there are still problems, it appears to be working for many.


Terry
 
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on May 14, 2016, 10:39:32 AM
Terry, I completely missed the news about being able to skip PR and apply directly for citizenship. I didn't think it was even possible.

Is this unconditional, 100% citizenship or some kind of  citizenship-lite  thing?  Can you own  property, vote, join the army, hold elected office, work for the gov,  own 100% of a business, work anywhere and without a WP?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: TerryLH on May 14, 2016, 09:31:30 PM
I haven't really researched it, but I believe it's unconditional.  A lot of info on TV.

Not sure about military service, though.  It seems to me that the people who would want to apply for citizenship aren't the same ones who would want to join the Army.

Terry
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on May 14, 2016, 10:07:04 PM
Hi Terry, ForumMates,

I agree that few if any newly minted Thai citizens would want to join the military. However, it is one measure of "unconditional."

---

This new accommodation surely must be some kind of Intl treaty reciprocity.  I cannot imagine that Thailand would be motivated to change the long-standing policy on citizenship voluntarily and without some good reason. 
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on January 25, 2018, 09:34:12 PM
Hiya MJ,

Welcome!  I don't know if coming from an ASEAN country makes any difference in your case.  However, at least for falang, there are NOT many permanent residents in Thailand. There seems to be a bit of  controversy about exactly how one gets it and how difficult or easy it is to obtain.  I think you have to have been making 80K per month for three years to qualify.  However, that should not be a problem for a rich KKU teacher!  Hehehehe . . . 

Other people may have better info that I do, but my research  (admittedly minimal) gives me the impression that  there are not really many benefits to being a permanent resident, even if you can get it.  It is not like the U.S. were permanent residents are very nearly citizens and  can do everything but vote in federal elections.

Anywho, your yellow book only proves that you live at the address in the book, it has NOTHING at all to do with your immigration status. With very few exceptions (if any) your status here will always be conditional, subject to the whims and pleasures of Immigration, reviewed and approved annually, as you no doubt have been doing all along. And that is the case regardless of how many Thai husbands and kids you might have.  It is unfortunate that immigration is so limited and restricted.  The only difference is that in the "old days" the same laws were in place, but rarely enforced, and the wheels could easily be greased with some bahtski. 


I assume by "falang" you mean non-Asians.  I know quite a few Westerners with PR, but mostly in Bangkok, none in Khon Kaen. There is a quota of 100 per country per year, AFAIK.
There are some benefits like no 90 day reporting and only reporting to the police station every 5 years. Also, it is a step to gaining Naturalized citizenship for single people or those not married to a Thai.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: LungBing on January 26, 2018, 06:22:10 PM
There might be a quota, a limit of 100 people a year per nationality, but I doubt very much whether that quota is ever reached.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Red Parrot Fish on January 26, 2018, 08:15:36 PM
No it is never reached because most of us will not qualify.
For some obscure reason they seem to prefer working and paying tax against providing for your family and being a good citizen.
Bizarre.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on January 30, 2018, 09:15:08 AM
No it is never reached because most of us will not qualify.
For some obscure reason they seem to prefer working and paying tax against providing for your family and being a good citizen.
Bizarre.
Many of us do qualify and the quotas are usually reached.


Don't most countries in the world require working, and paying taxes to get Permanent Residency?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on January 30, 2018, 10:01:38 AM
Tue 30 Jan 2018, 9:32 am


Hi ForumMates,


I have never gotten a clear answer to these questions. Not really interested enough to pursue it, but they do seem to be key and I don't see many people discussing them.


As a background, let me explain that a (legal) immigrant to the U.S. initially receives a "green card" or work permit which is "conditional," meaning they can be deported for bad behavior. After 3 years, they may then receive "unconditional permanent residency" as a step along the path to citizenship.  However, "unconditional permanent residency" is virtually the same as citizenship except for being able to vote, and if I remember correctly, may be revoked if the person is outside the U.S. for more than six months at a time, or something like that. Unless you were really passionate about voting or running for (federal) public office, you would be the same as a citizen.  Even before you got legal status, all the rugrats you pumped out would automatically become citizens. No restriction on employment, self-employment, investment, moving money or travel.


QUESTIONS

In Thailand, is/can  PR


1. revokable?
2. own land and other real property?
3.  have 100% ownership of a business?
4. work in any industry, in any job for any employer who will hire him/her?
5. avoid 90 day reports?
6. avoid annual extensions or reviews or interviews at Imm?
7. relieve home owners (et al) from filing TM 30?
8. relieve himself or herself from filing TM 28 (assuming that is a real thing)
9. avoid keeping funds on deposit?
10.  travel without multiple-entry stickers?


If PR does not involve at least several of the important points, it is NOT truly PR. It may still have value and may still be worth doing for some expats, but the term "Permanent Resident" is very misleading, especially if compared to what it means in other countries.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on January 30, 2018, 06:52:20 PM
Here is a link to the Thai Embassy site discussing Thai Permanent Residency.


http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php


For those of you too lazy to go to the website:


Thai Permanent Residency[/color][size=inherit]
A lot of people want to stay permanently in Thailand as it is one of the most sought-after destinations in South East Asia offering a low yet convenient standard of living.

There are a lot of inquiries from foreigners who are constantly on a trip to the Land of Smiles as to how they can apply for [/color]Thai Permanent Resident (http://usa.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/thailand-permanent-visa-us.php) status.
Obtaining status as a Permanent Resident (PR) in Thailand has many advantages. It allows you to live permanently in Thailand, with no requirement to apply for an extension of stay. You can also have your name on a house registration document, and you will be able to buy a condominium without making a bank transfer from abroad. Getting a work permit is also made easier once you have PR status.
In addition to this, you can be eligible to become a director of a Thai public company, as well as eventually apply to become a naturalized Thai citizen. You will also be able apply for an extension of stay and Permanent Resident status for your non-Thai family members.
All applications for Thai Permanent Residency is processed by the Royal Thai Immigration Commission. The annual quota for granting permanent residency in Thailand is a maximum of 100 persons per country. The application period for Thai PR usually from October to the end of December of every year.
In order to apply to become a Thai Permanent Resident, you must meet the following criteria:You must have had a Thai non-immigrant visa for at least three years prior to the submission of your application. Holders of multiple NON-Immigrant visas can not apply. You must have 3 consecutive yearly extensions in order to qualify.You must be a holder of a non-immigrant visa at the time of submitting your application.You must be able to meet one of these categories to apply for PR status in Thailand:Investment category (minimum 3 Ė 10 Mil. Baht investment in Thailand)Working/ Business categorySupport a family or Humanity Reasons category: In this category, you must have a relationship with a Thai citizen or an alien who already posses a residence permit as a husband or wife; father or mother; or a guardian of a Thai child under 20 years of age.Expert / academic categoryOther categories as determined by Thai ImmigrationYou should note that the list of required documents for the application depends on the category under which the application is made.
Once your application for Thai Permanent Residency is approved, a residence blue book is issued to you. You must then register your place of residence in Thailand at the local Amphur and obtain a house card. A week after the receipt of your residence certificate you can then apply for an alien book (red book) at the local police station, which is the equivalent of the Thai national ID card. You must re-register there every year.
The Residency Permit itself never expires, unless revoked. To be able to leave the country and return to Thailand, however, requires you to apply for a re-entry permit (endorsement).
You can file an application to become a Thai naturalized citizen after holding Permanent Resident status in Thailand for 10 consecutive years.
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color][/font][/size]
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on January 30, 2018, 07:56:29 PM
Tue 30 Jan 2018, 7:20 pm

Thanks Frank.

The websites only answer a few of my questions with clarity

QUESTIONS

In Thailand, is/can  PR

1. revokable?

Yes:  The Residency Permit itself never expires, "unless revoked."

2. own land and other real property?

Doesn't say, but I guess it's a "No!"  Says, "buy a condominium without making a bank transfer from abroad." Of course you can already buy a condo.  Not sure where you would get the money if you didn't transfer it from abroad.

3.  have 100% ownership of a business?

Doesn't say, but I guess it's a "No!" Says "can be eligible to become a director of a Thai public company." What does "can be eligible" mean?  Why don't they say "is eligible"?  I suppose this could be useful for few people. However, falang can already be directors of limited companies, but the company must be 51% owned by Thai partners.  Does this change with PR?  Doesn't say.

4. work in any industry, in any job for any employer who will hire him/her?

"Getting a work permit is also made easier once you have PR status." It is not terribly difficult without PR, but you are quite limited in the kinds of jobs and industries falang are allowed to participate in.  Does that change?

5. avoid 90 day reports?

Doesn't say,  but no longer need a visa or annual extension. That is helpful, but hardly worth the bother without other strong benefits

6. avoid annual extensions or reviews or interviews at Imm?

Yes. 

7. relieve home owners (et al) from filing TM 30?

Doesn't say.

8. relieve himself or herself from filing TM 28 (assuming that is a real thing)

Probably, but doesn't say

9. avoid keeping funds on deposit?

Doesn't say . . . except for "Investment Category" PR, minimum 3 Ė 10 Mil. Baht investment in Thailand)

10.  travel without multiple-entry stickers?

No.  Still must have re-entry permit(s).  Do Thai citizens need them to travel?

If PR does not involve at least several of the important points, it is NOT truly PR. It may still have value and may still be worth doing for some expats, but the term "Permanent Resident" is very misleading, especially if compared to what it means in other countries.



This is a link from the Thai Embassy website that Frank sent with shortified details
http://usa.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/thailand-permanent-visa-us.php (http://usa.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/thailand-permanent-visa-us.php)

Benefits

Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on January 31, 2018, 11:29:43 PM
Rex -  a brief reply to your questions.

Personally, I believe PR to be a waste of time and money these days. There are very few benefits, and still need to report to the police every 5 years, still need a re-entry permit, work permit etc. Can't own land, vote, work in many jobs etc. Never heard of it being revoked. Thais don't need a re-entry permit.

Citizenship is a much better AND easier, if married to a Thai, and a hell of a lot cheaper, only 5,000 baht. There are many foreigners who get it - seems to be a barstool myth that it's nearly impossible to get.

I applied for citizenship last month. I've already had the National Intelligence Agency interview. The next step is an interview with the Ministry of the Interior. I know someone who got citizenship a couple of months ago, it took him 2 years and 1 month -  the names are printed in the Royal Gazette.  http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/RKJ/announce/search_result.jsp?SID=02B59274C5D26AF651AA3DE08A762DF0 (http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/RKJ/announce/search_result.jsp?SID=02B59274C5D26AF651AA3DE08A762DF0)

I think mine might take longer, but who knows, I'll keep you posted. Under the present government, things like this are going much faster.

One must get 50/100 points to qualify. These are awarded for length of stay in Thailand, qualifications, salary, knowledge of Thailand and Thai language, age. I met one guy at the interview who couldn't speak Thai. In the past one needed to pass the Prathom 6 exam but now, not essential. Singing the national anthem เพลงชาติ and the royal anthem เพลงสรรเสริญพระบารมี are NOT required anymore.The Special Branch officer in Khon Kaen said it was but he has never done the process before, told me I am the guinea pig!!
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on February 01, 2018, 08:24:46 AM
This is the first time I have head any first-hand evidence that citizenship was nearly impossible. Thanks for the update.  Please keep us posted.

Most of the questions I raised about PR I already knew the answers to, or had a pretty good idea I knew the answer to them. I wonder why you don't see them discussed more. In my mind they are crucial.  As I said, the term PR Permanent Resident is a misnomer if you begin with what you assume it means or compare it to what it means in other countries.

Tks for your post.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on February 01, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
This is the first time I have head any first-hand evidence that citizenship was nearly impossible.


Actually, I'm saying contrary -  it's quite simple - not what many seem to think, it's what they say in Thai, riap ngai dtae yaak  เรียบง่ายแต่ยาก[/size][size=78%].[/size]
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Red Parrot Fish on February 01, 2018, 12:22:48 PM
Pretty impossible for most of us.
No job, no work permit and no record of tax payments.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on February 01, 2018, 01:18:21 PM
Pretty impossible for most of us.
No job, no work permit and no record of tax payments.




Most of us?


If you're retired, it's still possible but harder.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: DNPBC0 on February 01, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
Just in case Forum readers jumped to the wrong conclusion (I'm sure they didn't ..... but just in case): "ThaiEmbassy.com is not the official site of the Royal Thai Embassy and is not affiliated with the government of Thailand. This site is maintained and supported by Siam Legal, a Thai law firm. For questions about this site, please contact info@siam-legal.com."  See disclaimer at the foot of their website (link provided above by Frank). The disclaimer goes on to state, "The information provided at this site is of a general nature and may not apply to any particular set of facts or under all circumstances. It should not be construed as legal advice and does not constitute an engagement of Siam Legal or establish an attorney-client relationship. Laws are constantly changing. The information on this website was accurate at the time of posting and we make every effort to keep it current, however we are not responsible for outdated materials."

Peter

Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on February 01, 2018, 04:45:27 PM
This is the first time I have head any first-hand evidence that citizenship was nearly impossible.


Actually, I'm saying contrary -  it's quite simple - not what many seem to think, it's what they say in Thai, riap ngai dtae yaak  เรียบง่ายแต่ยาก[size=78%].[/size]

Sorry, my bad!    cry2 I meant to say "This is the first time I have heard any first-hand evidence that citizenship was NOT nearly impossible."
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on September 26, 2019, 12:17:03 PM
7600 to apply.  The rest you pay upon approval, which could be several years in the future, if at all. 
About 100k total for those married to a Thai.  About 200k for those not married to a Thai.

The website you read is a commercial site.  They are in the business of making money.  Maybe they didn't give all the fee info because it might scare off potential business?  I really don't know.

Here is more info.  More details about the total fee.

4. Fees
4.1 A fee for each application is 7,600 baht (Seven thousand six hundred baht only) whether permission is granted or not. Application fee is not refundable.
4.2 If the application is approved by the Immigration Commission, Prime Minister and Minister of Interior, the fee for the residence permit is 191,400 baht One hundred ninety-one thousand four hundred baht only). However, the residence permit fee for spouses and children (under 20 years of age) of aliens who already had the residence permit or Thai citizens is 95,700 baht (Ninety-five thousand and seven hundred baht only).

Terry
It was only 9000 until Taksin came to power. Also visas were only 500 baht.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on September 26, 2019, 04:01:37 PM
What is your point?  Why are we rehashing something from over three years and about something in the rehash pre-Taksin?  It makes no sense.

Today and forward is the current situation.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on September 26, 2019, 08:29:23 PM
What is your point?  Why are we rehashing something from over three years and about something in the rehash pre-Taksin?  It makes no sense.

Today and forward is the current situation.
Sorry, are you one of those wannabe moderators that kill forums? Someone was talking about the price of getting PR and I mention it was a reasonable price in the past, unlike today.


I was taking my 6  monthly look at the forum and my old posts and decided to reply.



Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on September 26, 2019, 08:37:31 PM
This is the first time I have head any first-hand evidence that citizenship was nearly impossible. Thanks for the update.  Please keep us posted.
Tks for your post.


Rex, to update you - I applied for Thai citizenship in Dec 2017. I've had my final interview at the MoI. Now I have to wait about 6-8 months for the Minister of Interior, the PM and HM the king give the go ahead. All-in-all a pretty easy experience. the Average time is currently 2.5 years.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on September 26, 2019, 10:05:35 PM
Very interesting.  Thanks for that.  Good luck with the finalizing. I wonder how many naturalized citizens there are in LOS?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: kiwiaussie on October 30, 2019, 10:22:40 AM
There are more than a few, but most of them are hiding in plain site. If you've been here a few years living and working, to my estimation it a no brainer to apply for citizenship, especially if you are married. As someone else said on this thread, it costs 5000 baht and is about a 2 to 3 year turn around at the moment.

For the most part, the 'application' is merely collecting many documents which you would already have. Here is a good rundown of the process if you are married. Hopefully it is okay to share:
https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on October 30, 2019, 03:58:30 PM
Thanks for the update, Kiwiaussie. Very interesting.  Your report, of course, brings up another couple of question. Why the persistent scuttlebutt that is is impossible or nearly impossible for the unwashed heathen to get Thai citizenship?  Or does everyone already know that and it's just me that is stuck in an information distortion bubble?
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on October 30, 2019, 05:28:41 PM
I am a US citizen by birth.  Since this seems to a 'hot' topic, I thought I would attempt to find any information within the US Social Security System that addresses this subject, dual citizenship, US by birth and by naturalization for the other country, which might affect the ability to receive a Social Security pension.  In this instance, I would imagine that someone attempting to proceed with this is most likely not planning on renouncing their US citizenship.

This is not a trivial action to becoming a naturalized Thai citizen and continuing to be a US citizen, especially after retiring. There seems to be several legal issues where it might affect the individual with losing their rights to a Social Security pension.

For a Thai to become a naturalized US citizen, it seems the legalities are not as severe.

If a US citizen is considering to proceed with this type of dual citizenship, they should really consult a lawyer who has this type of action as one of their specialties.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: martin on October 30, 2019, 09:56:49 PM

For the most part, the 'application' is merely collecting many documents which you would already have. Here is a good rundown of the process if you are married. Hopefully it is okay to share:
https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/ (https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/)



I was well aware of all that, having looked into a citizenship application some time ago.

For most blokes living with a Thai spouse here, the fly in the ointment is:-
- 3 years of consecutive work permits with a Thai employer,
- minimum 40,000฿salary and tax paid on that for 3 years.

Since most of us don't work, those obstacles are insurmountable.

Now, if they applied the same criteria that relates to a foreign female spouse that'd change the whole ball game ...... no working history required and therefore no tax requirement.

Talking of Ďball gamesí, maybe I'll go and have a Bollockoffame operation ;-) . Nah! Thai citizenship ain't worth that sort of sacrifice.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on October 31, 2019, 09:30:05 AM
Actually, that resolves the mystery for me.  Thanks, Martin. The  work permit x 3 years, plus B40K, plus paid taxes is probably a deal breaker except for a small subset of falang living here. That would preclude most Engarishe teachers as only the upper tier are making B40K. That precludes anyone on a retirement extension unless they change visas and qualify for a B40K job.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: kiwiaussie on October 31, 2019, 10:24:48 AM
@rex @martin

Yep, the need for the work history is the killer blow for one cohort of retirees in particular. Iíd like to see some sort of path to permanency if not citizenship for those who have been in long term relationships just to provide a bit of certainly to those involved. Unfortunately the way the law is structured now, there just isnít one.

For women married to a Thai male, the law is sexist and discriminatory no doubt, but a much overlooked fact is that the Thai male in that relationship has to prove their bonafides whether itís income, work history and military service. I read a lot of forum comments from those women who donít qualify as their husbands donít earn the requisite 30k per month needed in that case. So its not a free pass for the ladies either.

In terms of seeing who gets Thai citizenship, I guess it is all about who you are exposed to. There is a large group of young and middle aged people living and working in Thailand and plenty of them arenít English teachers. The run their own businesses, work for companies (Thai and foreign owned) or are teachers (either international schools, or language schools). But even the more established English teachers I know are pulling in more than the 40K per month and that opens up this path for them.

Itís all about getting 51 out of 100 points, if you get those points then you qualify.

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/scoring-criteria-for-thai-naturalisation-applications/ (https://www.thaicitizenship.com/scoring-criteria-for-thai-naturalisation-applications/)

As for why people think itís hard to get citizenship....its a good question.

Because Thai citizenship isnít in too high demand from many westerners given their passports are pretty powerful already. This probably plays into the perception that they donít give it out too easily. Owning land, your own business staying here without the visa and work permit hassles is great. The bureaucratic pain does go down alot. But on the travel front, the upside is more limited with the only really decent visa access to some ASEAN countries and Russia.

So thatís one aspect.

I think the fact that you have to deal with a government department to apply for citizenship scares people off.
Plenty of people, Thai and foreign, inevitably have difficult experiences in dealing with government departments here.

Add those two things together, and you get the Ďitís next to impossible to get thai citizenshipí comments/perceptions, when in fact dealing with the special branch office is probably one of the easier departments Iíve ever dealt with here.

So part of the challenge is really about de-mystifying the process a bit for a good section of foreigners here who may actually qualify, but donít know they do.I've met way too many people who have lived and worked here 20 years, and all that time were fully qualified for either PR or citizenship, but never bothered/didn't know/thought it was all too hard/had to be millionaires/well connected etc etc. They then reach retirement age, and are at the mercy of the visa regime of the day, when they need not be.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: fceligoj on October 31, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
Seems like there other hurdles that one has to overcome.

Here is a website that provides some additional information about necessary things one has to do.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Thailand/Thailand-Guide/Visas-Permits/Thai-Citizenship (https://www.justlanded.com/english/Thailand/Thailand-Guide/Visas-Permits/Thai-Citizenship)


NOTE the requirement: You will have to swear allegiance to the King and to the country of Thailand."

This one item (above) bothers me the most, not sure about other countries.  I think from a US citizen's perspective that flies into the face of your allegiance to the flag and to the country of your birth, the USofA.

But I guess to each his own.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on October 31, 2019, 12:26:29 PM
Tks Frank.  It also says you must be a "permanent resident."  I don't know if that is being used casually, or if you have to have already gone the the formal process of becoming a "permanent resident" which has it's own set of procedures and hoops to jump through.

Also, the Thai language provision could be a deal-breaker for many. Thai to English (and obviously vice versa) is not all that easy to acquire, and the older you are the more challenging it is.  I suppose, theoretically, even if someone is not naturally gifted in language learning, with enough determination and work, they might be able to get "good enough" depending upon what the gov deems "good enough." But for all practical purposes, it is going to be a deal break for many, especially if they are employed. BTW, I certainly don't object to language skills being a requirement. I support it. But the reality is, it will preclude many.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Rex (Admin) on October 31, 2019, 01:01:38 PM
Maybe I am wrong, but it is hard to imagine more than a tiny percentage of falang who actually want to be citizens  with a capital "C" in the flag-waving, Buddhist observing, join the military and fight for the country if invaded by Cambodia sense. I have not looked at it in a long time, but permanent residence would be fine for most.  The only problem is that PM does not mean the same thing as it does in the U.S. (and probably other countries as well).  The last time I looked at it, I did not see very many significant advantages over just continuing on a yearly visa.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: kiwiaussie on October 31, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
Maybe I am wrong, but it is hard to imagine more than a tiny percentage of falang who actually want to be citizens  with a capital "C" in the flag-waving, Buddhist observing, join the military and fight for the country if invaded by Cambodia sense. I have not looked at it in a long time, but permanent residence would be fine for most.  The only problem is that PM does not mean the same thing as it does in the U.S. (and probably other countries as well).  The last time I looked at it, I did not see very many significant advantages over just continuing on a yearly visa.
You are not wrong. Not to say that people who get citizenship don't have an affection for the place, but in terms of being flag waving nationalistic zealots, then probably not.The interesting thing to note is that special branch and the powers that be don't really want that either.
When asked during the interview process why you want Thai citizenship, practical answers such as not needing to have to get visas, owning land/business,  making life easier are the best answers. We were told straight from the horses mouth by officials from the NIA, that obsequious answers were frowned upon, and not encouraged.
And if that's the case, there is more than a tiny percentage of farangs who would be totally suitable applicants!
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on November 19, 2019, 11:19:04 PM

For the most part, the 'application' is merely collecting many documents which you would already have. Here is a good rundown of the process if you are married. Hopefully it is okay to share:
https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/ (https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-thai-spouse/)



I was well aware of all that, having looked into a citizenship application some time ago.

For most blokes living with a Thai spouse here, the fly in the ointment is:-
- 3 years of consecutive work permits with a Thai employer,
- minimum 40,000฿salary and tax paid on that for 3 years.

Since most of us don't work, those obstacles are insurmountable.

Now, if they applied the same criteria that relates to a foreign female spouse that'd change the whole ball game ...... no working history required and therefore no tax requirement.

Talking of Ďball gamesí, maybe I'll go and have a Bollockoffame operation ;-) . Nah! Thai citizenship ain't worth that sort of sacrifice.



lol, yes a bit severe.


Females also don't need to do the oath.


Most of the foreigners I know here work.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on November 19, 2019, 11:22:08 PM
Thanks for the update, Kiwiaussie. Very interesting.  Your report, of course, brings up another couple of question. Why the persistent scuttlebutt that is is impossible or nearly impossible for the unwashed heathen to get Thai citizenship?  Or does everyone already know that and it's just me that is stuck in an information distortion bubble?
It was hard when I first looked 20-25 years ago. Now it is easy, the information is there if you are interested.


I think the fact that most expats here don't bother to learn the language scares them away and they make up all kinds of strange stories like it's impossible.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on November 19, 2019, 11:25:43 PM
I am a US citizen by birth.  Since this seems to a 'hot' topic, I thought I would attempt to find any information within the US Social Security System that addresses this subject, dual citizenship, US by birth and by naturalization for the other country, which might affect the ability to receive a Social Security pension.  In this instance, I would imagine that someone attempting to proceed with this is most likely not planning on renouncing their US citizenship.

This is not a trivial action to becoming a naturalized Thai citizen and continuing to be a US citizen, especially after retiring. There seems to be several legal issues where it might affect the individual with losing their rights to a Social Security pension.

For a Thai to become a naturalized US citizen, it seems the legalities are not as severe.

If a US citizen is considering to proceed with this type of dual citizenship, they should really consult a lawyer who has this type of action as one of their specialties.


You don't have to renounce your US citizenship.


But you're retired anyway and have it pretty easy here compared to a Thai trying to retire in the US. I think they need to invest 16 million baht, and the old fuddy duddies here complain about showing 800,000 for a couple of months.
Title: Re: Yellow Residence Book? Permanent Residence?
Post by: Kajornsak on November 19, 2019, 11:32:48 PM
Maybe I am wrong, but it is hard to imagine more than a tiny percentage of falang who actually want to be citizens  with a capital "C" in the flag-waving, Buddhist observing, join the military and fight for the country if invaded by Cambodia sense. I have not looked at it in a long time, but permanent residence would be fine for most.  The only problem is that PM does not mean the same thing as it does in the U.S. (and probably other countries as well).  The last time I looked at it, I did not see very many significant advantages over just continuing on a yearly visa.

When asked during the interview process why you want Thai citizenship, practical answers such as not needing to have to get visas, owning land/business,  making life easier are the best answers. We were told straight from the horses mouth by officials from the NIA, that obsequious answers were frowned upon, and not encouraged.
And if that's the case, there is more than a tiny percentage of farangs who would be totally suitable applicants!



No, don't say that you want citizenship because you don't want to get visas. This is the worst thing you could say. There are about 20 people in the room, immigration, Special branch, heads of many govt. departments. The best thing to say is that Thailand is your home, your family is here, you have no ties with your old country etc.


Did you apply from Khon Kaen Special Branch?