Khon Kaen Forum

GENERAL DISCUSSION => Alerts and News about the Region and the World => Topic started by: Rex (Admin) on March 26, 2019, 03:48:30 PM

Title: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 26, 2019, 03:48:30 PM
(https://assets.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_03/1553500546699-960x0.jpg.4b691e73734cdddc2f09ce6814edc28e.jpg)

TNA reported that Thai Immigration are proposing much stiffer penalties for failing to report foreigners staying at addresses in Thailand.

Laws dating back to 1979 are not sufficient in the modern day especially when it comes to reporting the whereabouts of foreigners. They are considered to be too lenient . . .

Read the complete story on ThaiVisa.com => http://bit.ly/2CD753P

Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on March 27, 2019, 06:46:00 AM
It is going to make the reporting by the landlord of residence much stricter throughout the country.  AND then that falls back on the foreign renter to make sure his landlord does the responsible thing.  So again the farang is put in the middle.


Right now I am on a 7-day trip to South Thailand and when I get back, my wife and I will have to go to the Royal Thai police at the immigration office within 24 hours of returning to register my staying at her house again.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 27, 2019, 04:31:07 PM
I hear North Korea is nice this time of year!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: LungBing on March 27, 2019, 07:20:50 PM
And I bet their immigration are more friendly.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on March 28, 2019, 04:36:58 PM
My wife and I went to the Immigration Police Window at the Immigration Office at Bus Station #3 to complete the process for Form 30.


She ask them if she is required to come to the office in person or were there other means.


1.  One can submit Form 30 with the appropriate supporting documents by mail, or


2.  The home owner or landloard can go online, set up a User ID and Password so as to establish an account to submit the required Form 30.


I asked them if the online system was now usable to do this and was told yes.  So if you get your wife or gf or landlord to do it online, it should be a very easy operation whenever you leave the province and return.  As we have seen on Thaivisa newsletters, the Immigration Department is coming down hard on hotels and other temporary residences to submit Form 30s, which means if you stay somewhere outside the province, either a hotel or resort, you need to have a new Form 30 submitted once back in Khon Kaen, or the foreigner may be at fault.



Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 28, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
Why would the foreigner be a fault when it is the responsibility of the owner/agent to file the form?
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: TerryLH on March 28, 2019, 11:43:23 PM
"Why would the foreigner be a fault when it is the responsibility of the owner/agent to file the form?"

Low hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: kowpot on March 29, 2019, 06:47:41 AM
How many people notify their landlord or house owner that they have gone somewhere for a couple of days? I know I never have. Never thought it was any of their business.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 29, 2019, 08:00:02 AM
Indeed!  And it is highly unlikely that a landlord is going to report to Imm that they have a family of Jews hiding in their attic!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on March 29, 2019, 12:02:30 PM

You all are absolutely correct.  So, this is what was explained to my wife.  If the foreigner leaves for several days and checks into a hotel/resort, etc, the hotel/resort owner (in a perfect world), submits the information to immigration of the farang staying at their facility.  The farang leaves and goes back to his 'permanent' residence in Thailand.  BUT DOES NOT INFORM THE LANDLORD/OWNER THAT HE IS BACK.


Who is at fault?  Come to your own conclusions, but IMM says it is the fault of the foreigner of not informing the landlord/owner that he left and had now returned.  All this is surmised that the hotel/resort informs IMM of the farang staying in their facility.


It is no different than when you go on a trip to somewhere outside the province with wife/gf (from her residence), and when you come back she goes to IMM to submit a Form 30.


But it is all your own decision of what you plan on doing!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 29, 2019, 05:55:21 PM
As always, I continue to do my ongoing cost-benefit-analysis of remaining in Thailand. I find ways to "rationalize" the stupid stuff I don't like. I don't complain (much) and I don't support or participate in witless  "Thailand bashing." However, this TM30 business (especially as it pertains to accommodations other than hotels) is draconian and insane!  I have lived and worked in China three times, and one does not have to do this kind of reporting!

This doesn't even impact me personally in any significant way. I am a good boy. I follow the rules for the most part. Moreover, I suspect that to get caught out for not complying with the TM30 bullshit would be a one-in-a-million fluke.

Having said that, there is nothing about being in Thailand the disturbs more more than this.  While my allusions to North Korea and Jews in the attic are admittedly lurid, they capture the spirit of the thing, as far as I am concerned.

Panama and Costa Rica are looking better all the time.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on March 29, 2019, 08:01:14 PM
fceligoj (http://khonkaenforum.net/index.php?action=profile;u=21)
I tried to complete the online TM30 process and did not get very far. It wont let me put in the complete address of the house we live in and those fields are mandatory.

Did anyone else give it a try?

Dave G
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on March 30, 2019, 07:18:32 AM
Update: Address was accepted when written in Thai and I submitted the form successfully according to the popup message received. Now I wait for an email also according to a popup message received. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 30, 2019, 07:58:13 AM
Thanks for keeping us updated about this Savannah.  Do let us know if it worked.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 30, 2019, 09:32:22 AM
What if you own a condo? Do you file a TM30 as the owner reporting yourself as the slimy foreigner living in your house?
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 30, 2019, 09:43:02 AM

You all are absolutely correct.  So, this is what was explained to my wife.  If the foreigner leaves for several days and checks into a hotel/resort, etc, the hotel/resort owner (in a perfect world), submits the information to immigration of the farang staying at their facility.  The farang leaves and goes back to his 'permanent' residence in Thailand.  BUT DOES NOT INFORM THE LANDLORD/OWNER THAT HE IS BACK.


Who is at fault?  Come to your own conclusions, but IMM says it is the fault of the foreigner of not informing the landlord/owner that he left and had now returned.  All this is surmised that the hotel/resort informs IMM of the farang staying in their facility.


It is no different than when you go on a trip to somewhere outside the province with wife/gf (from her residence), and when you come back she goes to IMM to submit a Form 30.


But it is all your own decision of what you plan on doing!


Frank, thanks for posting this. You bring up some good points.  Assuming that what you are saying is correct (and I am not completely sure that it is), the slimy foreigner's obligation (assuming that it is indeed a legitimate obligation) is to report to the owner, NOT to Immigration. The responsibility for filing the TM30 still belongs to the owner, not with the slimy foreigner.  In theory, the slimy foreigner sends a registered letter (or some other means that constitutes proof of compliance) to owner announcing his return, and he's out of it at that point. No?


Disclaimer: I realize that being married to or in a relationship with owner presents a different set of dynamics, but that is not what I am addressing here.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on March 30, 2019, 01:29:56 PM
Update 2: Got their email. I clicked on the link in the email which was a typical way to confirm my email address was correct. I went back to the Immigration Bureau site and click on register and then click on check status. Sure enough the application is there and says approval or non approval will be determined by KK Immigration with 7 business days. Stay tuned.            https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/ (https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/)
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on March 30, 2019, 01:36:33 PM
By the way, step one in completing the online form is choosing if it is a Thai person or a slimy foreigner that is applying.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on March 30, 2019, 05:04:21 PM
Rex, not sure how a condo owner reports on (him/her)self.   But I know a friend of mine who owns a condo in Phuket (and does not want to get fined) has submitted a Form 30 for a foreigner renting his condo, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A MANAGEMENT COMPANY DOING THE RENTING FOR HIM.  They would not support him (this is a new mgt company.)


There were many issues for him to complete it ONLINE.  My wife tried to assist him early in the process, then he finally went to Khon Kaen Immigration for support.  They told him they COULD NOT assist them since they are not tied directly to Phuket (they have no internet access!)  He finally got on the telephone with an officer in the Phuket Office and got the process completed with much 'pain.'


So for him, every time someone rents his condo, he will be required to submit a Form 30.  Yes Rex, as you say it, he is a 'slimy' farang!


Up here in Khon Kaen, he rents a condo from another farang, so it is the owning farang who has to initiate the Form 30.


If I see the owning farang (golfs around the same as I do), who used to live in the condo in Khon Kaen until he and his wife bought a house, and ask him about how he handled the Form 30  when he lived in his own condo.  Hope to report next week.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Reuben on March 30, 2019, 06:09:01 PM
I'm with Rex, this is really beyond the ridiculous especially for those on long term stays type visas.  I live down in Ban Phai and have a condo in Khon Kaen where I spend several night a week.  I'll just have to pay a fine if caught, but I'm not going to do an address change with immigration four times a week.

Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 30, 2019, 06:47:37 PM

<snip>

So for him, every time someone rents his condo, he will be required to submit a Form 30.  Yes Rex, as you say it, he is a 'slimy' farang!




Not quite, Frank. If the law is to be taken literally and complied with meticulously, your friend's tenant in Phuket would have to dutifully report to friend every time he left Phuket, which hypothetically could be quite often if the guy does business or just likes to travel around.  As friend is in Khon Kaen, not Phuket, I guess his only alternative would be to find a management company he felt he could rely upon to do the reporting.


I have not spoken to my friend in Pattaya for awhile. He owns rentals. Sharp guy, meticulous with detail. He ran the numbers, and could not see how to make his operations work using a management company.  I guess that's just Life in the Big City.  But geeze . . . The guy brings money into Thailand, builds stuff, improves general environment, and gets stymied by regulations that make no sense and serve no one except the bureaucracy that creates and implements the regulations.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: kowpot on March 31, 2019, 06:46:05 AM
It makes absolutely no sense that an individual on a Non-O visa or extention should need to report themselves every time he or she takes a short trip especially in country.
 A person on a tourist visa for let's say, 60 days. Can come and go as they please. Go anywhere in the country at their leisure and are not required to report to anyone. Yes, I understand that if they stay in a hotel it is the hotels responsibility to report and file a TM-30 on their behalf. But, the tourist doesn't care one way or another. Why? Because he won't be fined no matter how it comes out.
 I think immigration has got this backwards. First of all, the long stayer is constantly reconfirming their address throughout the year. They are in my opinion the least likely to be considered terrorist or any threat to Thailand.
 On the other hand. If one was a criminal or prone to criminal acts, wouldn't they just come on a short stay visa, if any visa at all?
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on March 31, 2019, 07:25:11 AM

I guess you can say, "the law is the law", whether we like it or not.  Like many of you who have been here a long time, we never worried about Form 30 until the last 2-3 years when the Royal Thai Police/Immigration began to enforce a law that had been on the books for years.


I also think we as honest farangs living in Thailand are caught in the middle.  The law not only covers us but also the criminal element.  If you read the Bangkok Post or the ThaiVisa Newsletter, there are a majority of those who constantly break the immigration laws or are here for ulterior motives, like romance scammers, drug pushers, human traffickers, those hiding out from arrest warrants in their home country, etc.  So how does the government decide who is to be exempt from the current law or not?


How many overstayers has 'Big Joke' arrested?  Or illegal entry individuals?  Or those w/o work permits?  Or other illegal reasons?


The bigger frustration is all these requirements of adequate monthly or yearly income being transferred from abroad and identified in your bank account as international transfers vs what it used to be, an 'official' letter from one's Embassy.


Oh well, if the online system of submitting an electronic Form 30 really works, it should be easy to maintain 'legality.'
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: kowpot on March 31, 2019, 08:22:50 AM
I would rather be able to do the TM-30 online more than the 90 day report.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 31, 2019, 04:15:17 PM
I never would, please gawd, but what if I were to have a psychotic break and decide to go camping?  Does the park ranger or Smokey the Bear do the TM30? What if I do a meditation retreat at a wat in the mountains in the North? Does the head monk have to trot his hiney down to the nearest police box?

But you are correct, Kowpot, being able to report online takes away a lot of the onus. Maybe removing the onus isn't such a good thing in the long run if it obscures how draconian the law is. 

Besides, if you have a cell phone, they know where you are anyway.
Title: Foreigners on extension, not required to submit TM30 every time...
Post by: Rex (Admin) on March 31, 2019, 07:34:41 PM
Sun 31 Mar 2019, 7:33 pm

Go figure!   roll roll roll


"Speaking to Tommy Dee at Fabulous 103FM, Khun Pichai, who signs all the extensions of stay for foreigners applying at Jomtien immigration answered questions regarding the TM30 form and retirement extensions.

Regarding the TM30 form, foreigners staying in Thailand on an extension of stay are not required to submit a TM30 form each time they stay outside of the province . . . "
Continue reading on ThaiVisa.com => http://bit.ly/2FE3H9B (http://bit.ly/2FE3H9B)
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 01, 2019, 02:45:27 PM

Kind of interesting Rex, but like we have always said, each Immigration location has their own rules.  My wife specifically asked about the travel "OUTSIDE THE POVINCE"  and was told, "A NEW FORM 30 HAD TO BE SUBMITED."  If traveling within the province no requirement.  (not sure what the difference is but that is what Khon Kaen IMM has interpreted as the regulation.)


I did talk to my friend who owns a condo in Khon Kaen and he said he had to have a "juristic" individual sign the required Form 30 when he was living n that condo.  (He now rents it out to another farang as he is living elsewhere.  So now he files the Form 30 when the foreign renter leaves the province.)


By the way, isn't there another form that we would have to sign when we leave our stated residence for more than 24 hours?  This would cover your camping trip if to a national park, or you could report to the local Royal Thai Police and have them complete and sign a Form 30!

Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 01, 2019, 03:00:50 PM

I just went to the IMM website and went into forms (of course it is easier to do in Google Chrome since their titles are all in Thai.)  It is Form 25 that you could probably use if you are going to stay somewhere (like a temple, a campsite, etc.) for over 24 hours..  The title is "FORM FOR ALIENS (US-FARANGS) TO NOTIFY THEIR CHANGE OF ADDRESS OR THEIR STAY IN THE PROVINCE FOR OVER 24 HOURS."  It is to be a notification to the local police.


Wonder when they will make us formally use this notification to be able for them to track us day in and day out!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 01, 2019, 07:12:42 PM

Here you go, another article on the action of IMM with owners who don't report foreigners staying in their residence.

Thai media warns condo owners - face a 2,000 baht fine if you fail to report a guest ThaiVisa.com => http://bit.ly/2UbrgQW (http://bit.ly/2UbrgQW)
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: russell17au on April 01, 2019, 09:38:54 PM
Just be prepared for another enforcement of documents. Everyone is talking about the TM30 which must be submitted by the house and hotel owners and they are forgetting about the TM28 which is the document which the alien must fill out and submit for the change of address and for staying away from your registered address for more than 24 hours. A lot of farangs forget about this document which could land them in some hot water. Remember the TM30 is for the house owner and the TM28 is for the alien and both these documents should be lodged in accordance with the rules. So if they are going to crack down on the house and hotel owners you can bet that someone will notice that the aliens are not submitting their correct forms as well.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on April 02, 2019, 08:45:29 PM
On the several ThaiVisa treads discussing this, I can't recall anyone mentioning the TM28. And everyone talks about filing the TM30 themselves (not their landlord).  I wonder if they know the difference? 

One guy had a story about his Thai g/f staying at his condo while he was in Europe. Unbeknownst to him, she had two foreigners staying there.  Guess what happened?  he got fined for not filing the TM30 even though he didn't know anything about it!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Rex (Admin) on April 02, 2019, 08:54:48 PM

You all are absolutely correct.  So, this is what was explained to my wife.  If the foreigner leaves for several days and checks into a hotel/resort, etc, the hotel/resort owner (in a perfect world), submits the information to immigration of the farang staying at their facility.  The farang leaves and goes back to his 'permanent' residence in Thailand.  BUT DOES NOT INFORM THE LANDLORD/OWNER THAT HE IS BACK.


Who is at fault?  Come to your own conclusions, but IMM says it is the fault of the foreigner of not informing the landlord/owner that he left and had now returned.  All this is surmised that the hotel/resort informs IMM of the farang staying in their facility.


It is no different than when you go on a trip to somewhere outside the province with wife/gf (from her residence), and when you come back she goes to IMM to submit a Form 30.


But it is all your own decision of what you plan on doing!


Frank, thanks for posting this. You bring up some good points.  Assuming that what you are saying is correct (and I am not completely sure that it is), the slimy foreigner's obligation (assuming that it is indeed a legitimate obligation) is to report to the owner, NOT to Immigration. The responsibility for filing the TM30 still belongs to the owner, not with the slimy foreigner.  In theory, the slimy foreigner sends a registered letter (or some other means that constitutes proof of compliance) to owner announcing his return, and he's out of it at that point. No?


Disclaimer: I realize that being married to or in a relationship with owner presents a different set of dynamics, but that is not what I am addressing here.


Actually, I want to slightly amend what I said above.


Frank you said  The farang leaves and goes back to his 'permanent' residence in Thailand.  BUT DOES NOT INFORM THE LANDLORD/OWNER THAT HE IS BACK . . ."

While that is perfectly logical (How could the landlord be expected to do TM30 if he was unaware of the comings and goings of slimy foreigner?)  However, I have never read that the slimy foreigner is actually required to report himself to his landlord. Most or all of these unintended complications do not occur when we are talking about hotels and such. You don't stay at a hotel without reporting your comings and goings, obviously. However, at the level of long-term rentals or even house guests, it's like a trip down the rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 03, 2019, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from Rex, "One guy had a story about his Thai g/f staying at his condo while he was in Europe. Unbeknownst to him, she had two foreigners staying there.  Guess what happened?  he got fined for not filing the TM30 even though he didn't know anything about it!"

I think you answered one of the issues with this statement.

Only reason I brought up Form TM28, was your statement of possibly staying at a temple or going camping.  I doubt in either case, you will have those responsible submitting a TM30 for you staying at the campground or temple.

When we go camping and stay in a tent, someone comes by collecting the 30 baht and that's it.

If they are seriously interested, someone should possibly go to Khon Kaen Immigration and ask the question about TM28, or maybe no one wants to hear the REAL response!
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on April 03, 2019, 08:04:23 AM
TM28 I'm Going, Hotel I'm Here, TM30 I'm Back, 90 Day Report I'm Still Here, Extension I Want To Be Here Some More
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 03, 2019, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from Rex. "Not quite, Frank. If the law is to be taken literally and complied with meticulously, your friend's tenant in Phuket would have to dutifully report to friend every time he left Phuket, which hypothetically could be quite often if the guy does business or just likes to travel around.  As friend is in Khon Kaen, not Phuket, I guess his only alternative would be to find a management company he felt he could rely upon to do the reporting."


Guess the mgt company does not want to be the juristic person to submit the required Form TM30.  ]He had that before, but a new mgt ]company] which covers everyone in the condo complex who rents their condos, only way to get reasonable number of guests to rent.

]He just went down to Phuket to discuss all the issues besides the renting.  And like you said, the person renting for the 30 + days is in and out.  So the mgt company will inform him when the guest departs and arrives again so that he can complete the online Form TM30 and submit to Phuket Immigration.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 03, 2019, 09:40:36 AM
Reply to Savannah20,  you hit the nail on the head.  But what else do we retirees have to do with our lives?
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: fceligoj on April 03, 2019, 09:42:40 AM
Quote from Rex. "Not quite, Frank. If the law is to be taken literally and complied with meticulously, your friend's tenant in Phuket would have to dutifully report to friend every time he left Phuket, which hypothetically could be quite often if the guy does business or just likes to travel around.  As friend is in Khon Kaen, not Phuket, I guess his only alternative would be to find a management company he felt he could rely upon to do the reporting."Guess the mgt company does not want to be the juristic person to submit the required Form TM30.  He had that before, but a new mgt [size=78%]company[/size] which covers everyone in the condo complex who rents their condos, only way to get reasonable number of guests to rent.He just went down to Phuket to discuss all the issues besides the renting.  And like you said, the person renting for the 30 + days is in and out.  So the mgt company will inform him when the guest departs and arrives again so that he can complete the online Form TM30 and submit to Phuket Immigration.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on April 04, 2019, 09:13:55 AM
Update 2: Got their email. I clicked on the link in the email which was a typical way to confirm my email address was correct. I went back to the Immigration Bureau site and click on register and then click on check status. Sure enough the application is there and says approval or non approval will be determined by KK Immigration with 7 business days. Stay tuned.            https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/ (https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/)


Update 3:
ลงทะเบียนสำเร็จ
Your registration was successful
กรุณารอรับบัญชีผู้ใช้ทางอีเมล และเมื่อได้รับอีเมลแล้วสามารถนำรหัสผู้ใช้งานและรหัสผ่านที่ได้เข้าใช้งานระบบได้ทันที
Registration Confirmation.Then an email is sent to you with your username and password.
Title: Re: Much harsher penalties for failing to report foreigners staying in Thailand
Post by: Savannah20 on April 05, 2019, 08:26:57 PM
Update 4: Got the email with user name and password supplied. Logged right in with the supplied credentials and changed the password to one I created. There is a form to fill in with no surprising questions, name, passport, landing card number, arrival date etc. Click on the "record" button and all is done. I now stay at the house owned by my wife. At the end of the process I did not see anything I could print and put in my passport. I need to do my 90 day report before water festival starts so will ask them to check and see if I did it in a manner that makes them happy. I might take some doughnuts with me. A hungry group works at the immigration office.